{"id":2428,"date":"2015-09-26T14:17:37","date_gmt":"2015-09-26T14:17:37","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/artapolitica.ro\/?p=2428"},"modified":"2016-11-21T17:02:52","modified_gmt":"2016-11-21T17:02:52","slug":"cred-ca-peste-cativa-ani-o-sa-ne-uitam-la-chestia-asta-cum-ne-uitam-acum-la-caritas-si-la-fni","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/artapolitica.ro\/gazetapolitica\/en\/2015\/09\/26\/cred-ca-peste-cativa-ani-o-sa-ne-uitam-la-chestia-asta-cum-ne-uitam-acum-la-caritas-si-la-fni\/","title":{"rendered":"Interview with SORIN, one of the clients who sued the Romanian Commercial Bank (BCR)"},"content":{"rendered":"

In the spring of 2013, political scientist Vladimir Bortun conducted several interviews with clients of banks which gave out mortgage loans. The clients talk about their relationship with the banks, about the banks\u2019 unilateral decisions and abusive clauses.<\/em><\/p>\n

How did your relationship with BCR begin?<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n

Well, I decided to stop paying rent and move with the family, we couldn\u2019t fit in a one-bedroom flat anymore. And we thought we\u2019d take out a loan.<\/p>\n

What year was this?<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n

Late 2007, early 2008. I went to several banks, I asked for several offers, and in the end I thought BCR gave me the best options. One thing did puzzle me though. During the first year, I was supposed to pay fixed interest, after that it became variable, according to the reference posted in BCR subsidiaries. And I didn\u2019t know how this variable interest worked, so I asked them about it, but they answered in ways I didn\u2019t really understand. I asked the gentleman again and again, politely, how this mechanism worked. He couldn\u2019t explain it. He just couldn\u2019t, it\u2019s the fairest way to say it. I don\u2019t know if he meant not to.<\/p>\n

What exactly did you ask him?<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n

I asked him about what kind of events could lead to a steep increase in this variable interest, to the point where I couldn\u2019t pay it anymore. What could, for instance, increase my then-interest of 4.8% to, say, 7%? The man told me that probably only a war could do that. In that case, I accepted. Now I\u2019m paying 11% and there\u2019s no war.<\/p>\n

And how did things progress after you agreed to the loan?<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n

I paid my installments on time the first year, then they jumped from 200 euro to 460. And I told them there must some kind of mistake, No mistake, they said, the variable interest went up.<\/p>\n

What was the reason for that?<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n

Initially, I thought that the variable interest had to be paid according to the ROBOR or EURIBOR indexes (for loans in lei and euro respectively), which are set outside the bank which lends you the money. Everybody thought so. But I paid an interest rate set by BCR, which means that if the interest rate rises, I\u2019m paying for their incompetence \u2013 which is fine by me, up to a point \u2013 but I also have to pay for the fraud.<\/p>\n

Meaning?<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n

You\u2019ve seen the stories in the media lately, about frauds in banks. That money disappeared from the banks and those losses are put on my tab as well, in the installment.<\/p>\n

What did you do when the monthly installment doubled?<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n

In 2010, a couple of us in this situation gathered online and started talking, We decided to sue the bank.<\/p>\n

How many of you were there initially?<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n

Around 5-600. As the trial went on, we got fewer and fewer, because the bank offered all kinds of deals to people bypassing the lawyer.<\/p>\n

What kind of deals?<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n

I don\u2019t really know, they\u2019re confidential, but it\u2019s rumored they contain a preferential interest rate. It\u2019s still variable, only lower.<\/p>\n

How many of you are left?<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n

327, split in two groups, G1 and G2.<\/p>\n

What happened next?<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n

Before suing the bank, our lawyer sent them a letter asking them to negotiate, to see if we could settle this without unnecessary expenses. I had high hopes, but it turned out the bank did not cooperate.<\/p>\n

Did you still have faith in the bank at that point?<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n

My faith in the bank had started to fade earlier, when another BCr client who sued them separately \u2013 and won \u2013 made a graphic showing their variable interest rates remained high even when the EURBOR dropped. But my confidence was dead and buried in the courtroom, when I saw how the bank defended itself.<\/p>\n

How did they defend themselves?<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n

I can tell you what others told me, I don\u2019t want to wake up in the morning with a law firm suing me. One guy who studied for a year so he could defend himself told me that at the trial, one of the counselor\u2019s arguments was that oxen are tied to the fence with rope, people are tied with their signatures.<\/p>\n

When did your trial start?<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n

We sued on October 2010, but the issue only went to court in spring 2011. There was a lot of stalling, obviously. I was there, I saw them do it.<\/p>\n

Why are they stalling?<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n

The loan keeps rolling, they cash in. It suits them perfectly. Not to mention some drop their lawsuits.<\/p>\n

What did you accuse the bank of, precisely?<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n

We asked the court to attest to the abusive nature of the following clauses: the calculation of the variable interest, the loan commission, the maintenance commission, the risk commission \u2013 all masked interest, really \u2013 and the additional collateral commission. And in case they were found to be null and void, we asked to have them removed from our contracts.<\/p>\n

What is an abusive clause?<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n

There are two instances when a contract clause can be considered abusive: if it has not been negotiated and if it created, in bad faith, a major imbalance between the two parties.<\/p>\n

And how did the interest clause fit these criteria?<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n

First of all, it was not negotiated; it was put in the initial contract. Secondly, the fact that the calculating mechanism for the variable interest was purely arbitrary and the clients could not estimate its evolution denotes bad faith. Thirdly, the fact that the bank increased the interest when the EURIBOR index increased, but did not decrease it when EURIBOR decreased created a major imbalance.<\/p>\n

What did the court decide?<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n

The first ruling came in March 2012 and it nullified the maintenance commission. I forgot what it said about the rest, but they were dismissed anyway.<\/p>\n

What came next?<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n

I told you we were split into G1 and G2 groups, the same lawyer, different lawsuits. I\u2019m in G1. The ones in G2 managed to enforce the judgment on the bank and make them pay back the maintenance commission, around 900.000 lei.<\/p>\n

So it went all the way to judgment enforcement?<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n

Yes. There are people who have won irrevocable rulings in some cases, in others the judge said: \u201cTake this crap out of the contracts, have you no shame?\u201d and the bank replied: \u201cAnd what will we replace it with? Teach us!\u201d There is a colleague of ours who won on all counts, both the commissions and the interest rate had to be removed from the contract. They weren\u2019t, and he said he would stop paying the installments and even relinquish Romanian citizenship altogether.<\/p>\n

You said that G2 got their money back, but what about G1?<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n

We moved a bit slower, it dragged on and on, and then there was the appeal<\/p>\n

What happened then?<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n

We appealed, and so did the bank. They won it in February. It\u2019s very interesting. The appeal only took one day to judge, while the entire lawsuit up to that point had dragged on for two years! Besides, there was also the Munteanu case.<\/p>\n

What about it?<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n

Let\u2019s say you and I have the same contract, only the interest rate is different. We have the same lawyer, we were the clients of the same bank, we go to the same appellate court in Bucharest \u2013 you win everything, I lose everything!<\/p>\n

With the same documents and the same plea?<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n

Yes, everything is the same, but it\u2019s a different judge and a different verdict. In the Munteanus case, the judge not only agreed to the demands of the plaintiff, but added some of his own. It would be interesting for the banks to read that ruling, but I\u2019m guessing they\u2019re too busy.<\/p>\n

What\u2019s left after the appellate court\u2019s decision in February 2013?<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n

We\u2019re gonna go all the way, that\u2019s clear for everyone.<\/p>\n

Meaning?<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n

Meaning we\u2019ll go to the High Court of Justice, it\u2019s the highest you can go in Romania, legally. What I would like is for us to win at the High Court, and here\u2019s why: if we win here, the ones responsible get to pay. If we don\u2019t, these abusive clauses become the norm and they\u2019re setting a powerful precedent which they can use to bash any other complaints brought against the banks. If we go to the EHCR (European Court of Human Rights) and win there, my daughter will pay for all this mess, you will pay, everyone else will pay. It\u2019s not fair, not fair at all. That\u2019s why I wanna push this now.<\/p>\n

Now, after your experience with the courts, do you think there are other ways of fighting the banks?<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n

Yes, I do. I\u2019m paying my installments with a 29-day delay. It\u2019s not good for them, because they work with risks, and when I don\u2019t pay on time, it\u2019s increasing their risk. But other colleagues stopped paying altogether. I don\u2019t see why they should, they have an irrevocable court ruling forcing the banks to remove the clauses.<\/p>\n

In case you decide to stop paying also, how could they make you pay? Enforce judgment?<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n

Let them. The judge might make fun of them. It\u2019s happened before: people stopped paying their installments and until this whole abusive clauses issue is settled, they can\u2019t really be forced to pay.<\/p>\n

How did you perceive the way your situation has been depicted in the media?<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n

Somebody handling media budgets told me we didn\u2019t stand much of a chance, because they were the largest media buyers. But so far, everyone in the media I\u2019ve talked to has been on our side. And the situation has been depicted fairly.<\/p>\n

What do you think the authorities should be doing?<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n

First of all, there\u2019s the National Bank (BNR). No mortgage loan in Romania can be signed by a client until the National Bank has approved it. And the one\u2019s we got, they were approved\u2026Anyone can make mistakes, and BNR does have a lot of other work on its hands, it shouldn\u2019t focus mainly on this. But once it\u2019s made, once the situation becomes this severe, you start doing something. I wish they had more guts, I wish they made their presence felt, I wish they would let us know they know what this is about and they\u2019re watching over things. Second of all, there\u2019s the ANPC (Consumer Protection Bureau), who made a lot of noise, but accomplished little. Lately however, things have been moving there as well, the people there know a bit more what to do.<\/p>","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

In the spring of 2013, political scientist Vladimir Bortun conducted several interviews with clients of banks which gave out mortgage loans. The clients talk about their relationship with the banks, about the banks\u2019 unilateral decisions and abusive clauses. How did your relationship with BCR begin? Well, I decided to stop paying rent and move with the family, we couldn\u2019t fit in a one-bedroom flat anymore. And we thought we\u2019d take out a loan. What year was this? Late 2007, early 2008. I went to several banks, I asked for several offers, and in the end I thought BCR gave me…<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":4,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":[],"categories":[92],"tags":[143,96,97],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/artapolitica.ro\/gazetapolitica\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/2428"}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/artapolitica.ro\/gazetapolitica\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/artapolitica.ro\/gazetapolitica\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/artapolitica.ro\/gazetapolitica\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/4"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/artapolitica.ro\/gazetapolitica\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=2428"}],"version-history":[{"count":1,"href":"https:\/\/artapolitica.ro\/gazetapolitica\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/2428\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":3821,"href":"https:\/\/artapolitica.ro\/gazetapolitica\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/2428\/revisions\/3821"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/artapolitica.ro\/gazetapolitica\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=2428"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/artapolitica.ro\/gazetapolitica\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=2428"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/artapolitica.ro\/gazetapolitica\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=2428"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}